The Voice of Small Small Nations in the Sustainability Debate: What Lies Ahead of Us - Special Lecture by Her Excellency Ameenah Gurib Fakim (Former President of Mauritius)

A special lecture was delivered by H.E. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim, 6th President of the Republic of Mauritius on December 17, 2021 where the distinguished speaker addressed distinct elements on the topic, ‘The voice of small island nations in the sustainability debate: What lies ahead of us’.

Arpit Chaturvedi: All right, hello everybody, good morning, good evening, good afternoon depending on where you are joining us from. I welcome you to this fireside chat at the Global Policy Diplomacy and Sustainability Fellowship. I have the great pleasure of hosting H.E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim. I would request everybody else who is not speaking to please stay muted. Thank you. So it is an absolute pleasure hosting Her Excellency Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim who is the first female president of the Republic of Mauritius who served from 2015 to 2018. She began her career as a lecturer at the Faculty of Agriculture at the University of Mauritius. She served as the Dean of the Faculty of Science and the Pro-Vice-Chancellor at the University of Mauritius from 2004 to 2010. She received a Ph.D. in Organic Chemistry from the University of Exeter, UK and is a Member of the Royal Society of Chemistry. In 1989 she was awarded the C.Chem Award by the Royal Society of Chemistry in recognition of her skills and contribution to the field of chemistry. She has written and co-edited 26 books and numerous articles in the field of Biodiversity Conservation and Sustainable Development; she also served as the Managing Director of the Center for Phototherapy and Research and the Professor of Organic Chemistry at the University of Mauritius. Your Excellency, a big welcome to you. Thank you so much for sparing the time for speaking with us.

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Thank you so much Arpit and thank you for associating with this very important discussion and you are touching a theme that resonates with us. Small islands, of course, have many other issues as well, so thank you very much for this opportunity.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Thank you so much, Your Excellency. So let's jump right into our conversation. So we are talking about small islands and the voices of nations like Mauritius. So the voices of small nations. My question to you is that do you think that large development developing as well as developed countries are doing enough to safeguard the interest of small island nations in the face of extreme climate change and rise in sea levels, because recently we've just had COP26 and a lot of the future of climate change and sea levels depends on the actions taken by India, China, the United States, Russia and I want to understand from you first hand whether you have confidence in the actions of some of these large nations

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: That's a very leading question. If we go by what has happened over the past two years, I think we saw what the word interest means and we saw the interest of some countries moreover regions mattered more over what was happening to the rest of humanity. So, I am not going to say I am a pessimist but I am a realist and we are a small island state, we constitute a consortium of about over 30 countries across the world and we are really at the forefront of climate change and the same goes for the rest of the African economy where there are bigger countries and if you look at our emission combined we don't exceed five percent even that I am really being generous. So if we look at the emissions coming out from these countries we can say that we are the victims of the changing climate and we are going to be bearing the brunt of the impact of climate change. Of course, if you look at a small island state the first thing is going to happen of course with the sea, the sea level rise will be such that the countries will just disappear. I mean, if you look at a country like Maldives they are only about four or five meters above sea level so any increase in the height in the water level will mean disappearance of quite a few of the beautiful beaches in that particular country. There are countries which have already taken measures and if you look at a country like Tuvalu, I know they have been discussing with Fiji to see how the population can be relocated. So that's one of the downside of climate change and if you look what happened at COP(26) I think I have to mention again the speech that was given by Barbados Prime Minister Mia Mottley and she has been very explicit and she says the pledges that have been made when there was the first agreement at the COP in Paris in 2015, the pledges have never been delivered on and she actually used something which was quite amusing- she says mind the gap. There is always a gap in the investment in the green fund and the gap, as we speak, I think is about over 25 billion dollars. One thing we have to put here on the table is that when we look at the green fund, I think, first of all, I have to point out that this is not a charity which has been given to small islands and developing countries. It is not a charity. I will explain quickly why, you know, when this was discussed why was the green fund created in the first place? Because the lungs of the world are in the global south, the forests which actually ensure our oxygen intake every day mostly come from the global south. If you look at the diversity of the flora and the fauna of the south they are all in developing countries. Now, so one thing that when we say that we need the green thumb we need access technology we need to be able to transition to greener ways of doing business we need to cut down emission and this is something that nobody wants to agree on because the science is very clear it is the emission which is now driving the change in the climate. And one thing because we're talking about climate change we're talking about small island state wherever we talk about the power difference the power gap we always say oh it's the rich countries driving the agenda the funds and all the rest of it, but there are intangibles which we cannot put a price on and in fact if you go back to the works of the Professor Sir Das Gupta in Cambridge University, he has tried to put a value on ecosystem services which nature gives us for free and if you look at his seminal work on this item, he actually tries to capitalize the value of the ecosystemic services which nature gives us for free and he puts it at 100 and over 125 trillion US dollars per year given to us free. Now where are these services coming from? They are coming from the global south. They are coming from island states and when you look at island states we occupy less than two percent of the world's surface and yet we provide when you say we, I mean all the biodiversity hotspots which actually you know may which we actually sit on they contribute over 40 percent of the ecosystemic services for the most vulnerable people on this planet and when we show when we talk about ecosystemic services we are also talking about the livelihoods of those people living in the north and I think one thing that Covid has shown us is the interconnectedness with all of us with nature with our environment and if the theory of the bat( about the Covid origin) remains true, yeah I mean I say it because we still don't know but I said if because that was the argument that was put forward before, I mean, this brings us to a very very fundamental problem is that the closer we get to nature the more we destroy our forest the more we are cutting the branch on which we are all sitting and this is something that we have to understand. I say we mean really collectively north and south, we need to put our heads together and realize that the green dollar is all good but it's not enough to save us from ourselves.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Absolutely thank you for that powerful opening statement, Your Excellency. My follow-up question to that in fact two of them is that one, do you think that the global north south argument is diluting the debate in terms of the nations who are most affected like a lot of times the discussion is between the global north and the global south, but then it doesn't give enough voice to states like Barbados states like Mauritius while the global south debate is served by you know other larger countries so that's question number one. And question number two is, what is the contingency plan like if if at all you know the worst happens that you know some of these countries you talked about Maldives they start getting submerged then, how does the relocation process look like like what does it like do they have pacts with other countries that okay this is the area this is the country that our population would relocate to and how serious are these plans and how foolproof are these plans so that they cause minimal losses of life?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: You know, let's go back to the basics, right. What has been our development model so far, how did we reach where we are today in terms of emission which has been produced over a century ago when we when the west started with the Industrial Revolution, right. This is where it all started and it's been incremental. It's been added every year so it's not something that we've discovered recently. So our entire business model has been pushed by the north and this is not something that I am saying because this has been said all the time by the great thinkers like Keynes and or all these great thinkers, they have said that our business model has for too long depended on extraction. We have always extracted and in fact if you look at the way we have even talked about GDP it is all based on extraction. It has always been based on destruction. We haven't changed that model. It's still there and we'll always be there because every time we talk about progress we always say that you know what GDP growth is. So this is the way we have been doing it. And who has driven the agenda so far of course, in those countries that have been there the past colonial powers and those countries you know which have shaped the international agenda through setting up of the multilateral institutions I mean the Bretton Wood Organization, all that it's all been there so the drive has always been the economy the drive has always been there the model for development has always been extraction. So when we now have emerging countries they say why should we not pollute because that has been the way that economies have grown. So this is the way things are and I think this is where the deadlock is going to be- how are we going to transition so that it does not impact growth. If you look at the way that the text has been watered down at COP26, I mean the big players I am not going to mention in the country for obvious reasons, they can recognize themselves is that they have watered down the texts to actually say that you know, literally say that fossil fuel should not be blamed for driving the greenhouse gas emission and we all know, I mean all the science has been has been there to show that. But the problem is that is okay we should not be approaching blame but where is the leadership where is a strong multilateral system that needs to be put in place so that we can get around we can get our heads around this problem? And this is where we're lacking. We're not seeing that leadership and the model that has been developed since World War II has been a bipolar world then became a unipolar world and now we're saying we're going to multipolar the world. So where are we going to get that leadership? I think we have to go back to the United Nations. We have to go back again to the reforms of the United Nation to see to it that there is representation. I just looked . Last week I had this discussion even with Russell Heimer when I was discussing, let's look at the power play at the level of the UN. Who actually calls the shot, the U.N. Secretary, the U.N. Security Council? What is membership like? I mean, I said this last week and I will say it again, one continent representing 500 million people over 7 billion actually takes 40 percent of membership. Where is Africa 1.4 billion? Where is the ASEAN group right? Where is Mecca? Where are the South American countries where, why are they not represented? So there has to be some reform and one thing I've said as well and I will say it again is that this veto power that these groups have had which they represented in 1945, I mean this group is completely redundant because the countries that came after 1945-1948 I mean they are not represented anywhere. So where is the leadership, that is what we need to ask and in fact if we had stopped bickering last year, if we had taken the curve seriously and taking it up to the net, to the Security Council immediately just like we did with Ebola in 2014, we would not be seeing this crisis as we see today. What we saw last year was this apportioning blame and backstabbing people and trying to throw the blame but instead we should have had a very strong leadership. I mean, so many emerging countries, so many powerful countries, now joint leadership, and try and tackle this up front and we will not be, as we speak, today where it is so the same thing. If we look, if we adopt the same playbook as we have done for Covid, I mean that the situation is going to be dire in the face of climate change.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Absolutely and I think this sort of a mutual bickering is at the root of this lack of cooperation is at the root of a lot of problems that we're seeing in the world, but I see that Jon has a follow-up question to this so let me invite Jon, go ahead please.

Jonathon Cummings: Oh thank you, Your Excellency, so I kind of want to pivot the conversation a little bit about what you said earlier I'm just bringing in a little bit of the private sector lands here so earlier on you mentioned that there are greener ways to do business, and you know people often times try to categorize a value that nature provides us for free and so on and so forth. But can you talk a little bit about how small island nations can enable the private sector and encourage investments into a new greener economy and sustainable technologies?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Well I think we as a small group, as I said we are very very small at the level of the international forum. We are I mean, come on we have one million people here in Mauritius. If you look at a country like Barbados it is just under 300,000, so we are a very very small group. But I think what we can do as I said is try and restore the ecosystems and by restoring the ecosystem we are creating a greener and a safer planet. So for this to be able to transition to this greener ecosystem we need access to the tools and this is where a north-south dialogue in north-south collaboration matters, and we are as I consider my country to be an ocean state because we have a land space of 2.2 million thousand square kilometer, but we have an ocean space of 2.2 million square kilometer. And if we look at what Seychelles did and here I will posit that as a way of sharing good practices. Seychelles has negotiated with some organizations as well of how they can preserve the ecosystem for that swap. So these are things that we can do because by preserving the outside the sea mass which is outside jurisdiction. If we can help in that space, we can provide these fantastic ocean sinks for absorbing more of this greenhouse gas emission and, of course a healthier environment, a healthier ocean and shows cleaner water ensures that the ecosystem is restored. And when we say the ecosystem is restored means that the whales for example, will be swimming freely and of course we know that the whales by themselves are the biggest absorbers of carbon, the planktons that they eat in all this ecosystem. So what I am trying to push for is a system where there is much better cooperation north and south, big and small but at the same time recognize the interconnectedness that we all have with each other on this planet and this is the narrative we have to push for is that ecosystem matter this is the branch as I said earlier on which we're all sitting and we have to get the private sector to be partnered to the system. Having said this I will again put another caveat here; the private sector wants to push for greener technologies. Greener technologies will depend on resources, minerals. These minerals again come from developing countries. If you look at the mobile industry, we have been driven by cobalt from drc. If we are going to look at the transition to green green energies we are going to look at the rare elements, so in this question of give and take. We want the corporations that are exploiting the resources in the south to pay your taxes because we need the taxes to actually drive our own economies, and it's only when we do that, that way we will see less migration, less refugees leaving the continent to go elsewhere. So I think what we call for, is that 100 years ago the economy was handed over to the private sector, and look what we are where we are today. So we had a system but we need a different system , where we need to train this mindset. Right in fact this morning, I was listening to a documentary and I mentioned the name of the country because it really felt terrible. If you look at a country like Ecuador Guinea, the country depends on petrol. The country, the petrol is being exploited by some mobile right and how much do you think they'll get there in terms of revenue. They get 10 to 12 percent. I mean come on this is not serious and then we say all the country is corrupt but for every corruptor there's a corruptee. So let us come back to the table and look at ways of sharing because when there is no planet, there is no planet. It is bad and I will tell you one thing again. I'm sorry I'm not a diplomat. I will say what I think, is that the reason why we are seeing more attention drawn to climate change, I'm sorry to say this, is because countries in the north are now experiencing climate change. We are seeing forests in Seattle, we're seeing Kuwait temperatures in Seattle, we are seeing forests in Australia, we are seeing forests in Greece. Now people are talking. Now just look at the floods that happen in India when the Ganges overflows, countries like Bangladesh every year get flooded, nobody thinks about it, nobody talks about it. But now when you are seeing New York city flooded and the projections are dire for cities like New York where it is predicted that many of the buildings are going to be underwater very soon. So now we're seeing traction for climate change because it is impacting cities in the north. So let us be honest with ourselves, there is only one planet there is no planet B, so the sooner we come to the table and we start sharing the better is going to be for all of us, and let us not benchmark ourselves with Covid when relaxing the rules of the WHO become such an issue that now we're having so many multiple variants because there has been six percent vaccination in Africa so let us not use that playbook because it's not going to serve us all at all.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Thank you, your excellency. Let me bring the discussion back to what you were referring to, in terms of reforms of the United Nations. So my question is that how do we instill equitable representation in international relations, because as you rightly said that 40 percent of the United Nations or Security Council decisions are taken by just one continent and the question over there is that they would certainly not have any incentives to give way to other countries, now what is a potential solution like a parallel UN or how how do you do that?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: No I think the UN has been has been, I mean, there has been a lot of critique vis-a-vis the organization even the WHO has had a lot of flack recently but if you look at the way the system has been designed, I mean, you know, they operate within a remit and I think what we have to do is rethink the United Nations is still there for republican to retool it. But I think again, I'm sorry Jonathon, I have to hop in your country again that let us have a rule-based organization where people adhere to the rule if, if a treaty a convention has been wrought has been approved at the level of the United Nation over 194 countries have approved it why should one or two countries not signed or not ratified? I mean, during the last administration we saw how the Trump administration moved out of WHO, right in the midst of a crisis, I mean, you can again a portion blame we can do all sorts of investigation but after we have gone through this, we saw with withdrawal from that and you know this is something that we have to really think. Now just think one thing: I am going to be very blunt here. We are the new boogeyman of the west now is China right. Then this is the new boogeyman, let's be honest about it I am not going to, I don't sugarcoat anything. Now let's look at one item, let's look at the conventions which have been signed and ratified by the United States and by China, let's look at one item UNCLOS. Has the US signed it, has the US ratified it? Has China signed it, has China ratified it? Ask the question you can go and check. Now let's look at the Convention for Biodiversity. Has the US signed it, has the US ratified it? Has China signed it, has China ratified it? Right, let's look at this. Make a checklist and you will see who is not playing by the rule. Now if you want to have it ingrained in the United Nations, we need to have a rule-based organization and the same thing goes for WTO. You need judges, you need to have a level playing field and if you look at Europe even look at the subsidies which are given to agriculture. Now how can an African country cope and actually export when you have big countries which are subsidizing their products? I mean this is again not possible. I mean there has to be somewhere where the system must change and change must happen and change I think it will happen because the projections are only there, I think we know that by 2050 or 2040 which are the biggest economies that are going to be there and at some point things will happen by sheer market size by share market force because at the end of the day that's all the language we know.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Absolutely and I also think that we should probably also look at the real actions on the ground by various nation states and not just know what conventions they are signing on to. But my next question over there Your Excellency, is that the race to net zero is being talked about quite a lot lately and my concern over there is that are there too many ambiguities in defining what is net zero because as for their own convenience various players are defining that zero, you know in their own terms so is it eventually just going to be another green washing agenda or do you think that there's something real to this so-called race to net zero?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Well the race to net zero has already been put by some countries to 2050, and some to 2060 right, but do you think nature is going to adhere to our agenda to our deadlines? No way. I mean I think the scientist is already saying we have reached a tipping point, and the tipping point is there when you see. Look at the glaciers which are melting and you see that of course the impact of course will be India all the way in the rivers the Indus and everywhere the Mekong is going to overflow, you name it all the big rivers are going to experience that especially with their glaciers. So what we have to just accept is that we need to move fast and we need to go beyond this rhetoric. I'm sorry I am going to say this rhetoric about the green washing that the net zero thing is all about and also we need to ensure that the poorer countries get the jewels right. I have just given one example of people paying the taxes right people paying all the concession fees that they are they're exploiting and also you know we are we still haven't unlearned the lesson of past pandemic and if we haven't learned the lesson from past pandemic even this one I don't think we are learning anything at all because we're still seeing the same selfishness the same egotistical way of doing things, we still are not taking our cue so let us start thinking differently and I think this is where there will be coalition of countries. We have seen how the ASEAN has been very successful and I think they will have some way to actually to leverage in the discussion so it's going to happen regionally it's going to happen originally and I think they will push the agenda for what matters because Africa has already signed up to the Africa Free Trade Agreement it's already operational and Africa is understanding the lesson in a hard way because I think they understood the lesson recently when they saw how they were still dependent on outside sources for their basics and I have been saying this all along, we need to start investing Africa has a 60-plus year post-independence history okay I am not going to be an apologist for this but it is clear that we have to start running and we have to start running in terms of investment now institution in the human capital and Africa by 2050 is going to be youngest continent providing human capital human resource to the rest of the world. So it is in our interest to start investing in our institution investing in our production capabilities investing in transformation of our resources so that we can then be looked upon as a credible and serious partner.

Arpit Chaturvedi: So absolutely and I 100% agree with you when you say that the solutions will have to be found regionally and that's the reason why my personal research and the research at Global Policy Insights our think tank is focused on regional cooperation quite a bit. My last question to you before I open it up to the audience is that is there any argument for being hopeful amidst the whole climate crisis. Is there any reason for hope?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: You know your human race is an amazing race I mean okay I will just again caveat what I am saying if we were to compress the entire juice the geological cycle of the world in 24 hours, we would have appeared just a few seconds before midnight but look at the damage we've done to the planet. Having said this, the human race can bounce back. We have shown amazing resilience. We have been through many such problems in the past. Now I think we are much more empowered. We have the tools that we need to to help us pull ourselves together so that we can leave a legacy for our kids. I mean this is what it's all about at the end of the day is to leave a legacy for our children and the grandchildren and make sure that when our grandchildren actually are born they will be able to see a glacier for what it's worth for what we know we have seen ourselves today so, I am an eternal optimist maybe a prudent one, but we need to change the way our mindset. We need to stop that rat race we have gone into and because when you are in rat race you'll end up of course down the street and it's not going to help us at all so we need to to actually educate our kids that the only way forward is when we start sharing and when we start really helping our fellow global citizens because this is what we are at the end of the day. One thing I will say here because the issue is about refugees the issues about migration one thing I would say, is that because again the narrative that the media portrays is that they're all going to the west it completely unfolds it's completely false because 75 percent of migrants they are still living in the developing world and this is not something that we talk about so, this is what we have to say but migration has been I am a product of migration when my forebears left India, four generations ago. So we are all products of migration so let us come to terms with this that migration brings diversity, migrations bring cultures and you know enriches our social fabric so let us let us accept that and I think nativistic activistic xenophobia I think it is not it's not the order of the day so let us rethink our purpose on this planet .

Arpit Chaturvedi: Absolutely and with those hopeful words we will open it out to the audience so one of our GPODS alumni Nikunj has a question, so I'll let Nikunj unmute himself and go ahead and ask his question to Her Excellency.

Nikunj: Thank you so much, and Her Excellency, thank you so much for joining us today. I had two very quick questions for you. You touched base upon how private organizations should actually get involved in taking care of these small nations and kind of investing in these nations because they are so going, so called going green in the future which I really don't see happening. Having said that, I stay in the United States now, so what do you think is one of the incentives for them to kind of invest in these countries and come in and play an important role in trying to conserve the environment in just the future for our generations and all of the other reasons you mentioned? And my second question will be, you spoke about how we are at the tipping point today and how we're gonna go down the hill in the near future when we're waiting for countries, major countries to kind of sign and ratify policies. What do you think is something we do today in our power to kind of help start and bring this change instead of actually waiting for them until 2040 or 2050 for them to learn from their mystics and kind of realize like you said how Africa learned from their mistakes and learned it the hard way and now we realize what we are doing and we need to move progressively? So what are your thoughts in this area?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Could you respond to your first question how, for example, let's I will take it from my own country small island state and our resources come from tourism because almost 30 of our GDP come from tourism and I think this is why again in north-south dialogue can help for example, boost our tourism sector but more importantly, help rejuvenate that tourism sector and make it greener and make it sustainable and here if I draw a parallel with what has happened in Costa Rica, for example. Costa Rica has got an amazing tourism sector and they have a tourism which is green, which is sustainable and they have, with the collaboration of many organizations, they have been able to use that, that economy or that tourism, tourist sector to actually help protect their own biodiversity so these are some of the initiative that we can bring on board to help to have enough staff dialogue, and you know look at for example another sector where the north can help the south. In my part of the world there is a lot of tuna fishing we can ensure for example sustainable tuna fishing and this can be brought all the way up to the tables in the north in the United States where you are for example where with the QR code they can actually be able to retrace back so we need the technology we need to know how the training within the human power and this is how when I talk about the north south dialogue we can encourage this kind of discussion and move ahead. Sorry, could you remind me of the second question quickly?

Arpit Chaturvedi: Nikunj can you unmute yourself again and ask the second question, please

Nikunj: No, I basically got unmute due to security settings but my second question was you mentioned about how we are at the tipping point in today's…

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Yeah, I get it, I get it, you know, we always say that we have to rely on the leaders to make a difference. I think at the level of each one of us we will be able to make a difference nationally. We know that all actions are local but the impact has to be global but having said this there are certain things that actions at local level will not make that much of a difference it can make, a difference I tell you in what particular sector. If you look at the textile sector, which is the second biggest polluting sector in the world, the textile manufacturing so if we adopt for example at individual level or at country level the three hours which is reduce reuse and recycle and this is anathema I know to many parts of the world because this is simply you know not part of the narrative but I think this is where individually we can make a difference and help for example retool the textile industry so that there is less impact in terms of the pollution of our waterways for example but still we need the leadership at the global level to tackle global problems like climate change I mean air quality for example in india has to be tackled by your government and it has to be tackled by umIdon't know regional players as well to ensure that whenever the the pollution is spreading they do something about it so this is I think collectively we can we can do things but at the end of the day you come back to the actions that we can we can each do but we still need the global collective action to make to make a bigger difference at the international forum.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Thank you, thank you, Your Excellency, we have a question from maybe we can take two questions together just in the interest of time, so I'd invite Tamari who is another GPODS alumni and Mary who is a current GPODS fellow. So Tamari and Mary, over to you.

Tamari: Hello, good day Your Excellence. Now you have mentioned about countries not signing the treaties or people relocating because of the climate change and I would like to know, do you agree that climate change is likely to produce a massive hazard to peace and security in future or because it is mostly dependent on leaders also relocation creates conflict between ethnicities and some culture? So what are your thoughts on that?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Climate change, the impact of climate change is already happening. In fact the war in Syria started because of the impacts of the changing climate. Crops are fading people were moving, you know from from the rural areas to the urban areas and there has been attribution to this we know at the end of the day we know that refugee crisis will increase and I think it is said I think some institution I've been projecting that 20 percent of the world of the popular global population will be moving by 2050. Now just think 20 by 2050 we talk about 9 billion people so you can imagine the impact that this will have on any country now you know nothing can compete with an empty stomach nothing so crops are failing families are are losing the the the the you know families are doing losing sometimes the cattle that they depend on and all this because of water cycles have been disrupted crops which are failing and people will inevitably move. Now people move but there are barriers and these barriers are man-made and if you look at Africa 200 300 years ago before the arrival of the colonial powers there were no barriers and we know that the African continent we know now has been made after the berlin conference in 1895. So I mean we're not going to go that route but I am saying is that people will move climate change will impact civilization has impacted position for a long long time but it's going to happen more and more and now that we have the power of media we will see it we live it and of course it's causing increased changes in the political dynamics we have seen populism rising everywhere in many parts of the world because of this migration crisis but at the end of the day how do we encourage people to stay back to their countries when we know that all we have to do is keep on investing keep on creating the ecosystem where the young people, for example will find opportunities we'll be able to stay there and work but with this you need resources and it comes back again to the dollar how much money do we have.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Absolutely and very quickly Mary and Jonathan

Mary: Thank you, Your Excellency, for such an insightful talk, a few caught touches which are a little painful but yes, very relevant. So I have three questions, my first question is how do you define or interpret the term green because today when we see how green is being defined, green is not independent of mining fortunately or unfortunately. My second question in that same alignment is Mauritius be dependent on tourism, so what specifically Mauritius, as a nation does to preserve the biodiversity heritage that it and if you could please throw some light on the action plan that Mauritius has introduced until 2025 to totally stop invasive species coming in. So how have you incentivized that practice, these are the three questions thank you very much.

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: If you were to ask my definition of what green is green is to me using resources which are known I mean not fossil because fossil is limited resources which are infinite and yet causes hardly any impact to the environment and if you want to actually put it down to an example for example solar energy to me would be renewable would be green wind energy will be wave energy will also be green because you know it is not impacting it's not using the finite resources that fossil fuel for example and fossil the minerals actually bring on board. When it comes to a country like Mauritius how do we for example limit invasive species again? It's a challenge at many levels because while we have been good in the past we've had a unique biodiversity. Unfortunately as we speak we only have one percent of the forest covered so the human impact has been huge in terms of what we have done in terms of damage to our forests for example. But having said this we have some good stories to share to the world while we are recognized across the world for having house at some point, the Dodo which is now the symbol of extinction we also now have the Kestrel and as a small country a very small country lost in the middle of the Indian Ocean we have contributed over five percent of the safeguard of the global of the global fauna in terms of birds so we have shown that good practices are there we are challenged because invasive species you know invasive business sometimes it's beyond our country. When I talk about invasive species there's also the terrestrial species there's of course the marine species now if we are going to tackle the marine species we're going to have to handle the marine industry and there we have a behemoth in front of us and here I'll just take one example for example ballast water all the ships which go in and the water gets exchanged there is no regulation there to control the ballast water so whatever is moving around you know it's happening in all the waters and that's a challenge we have tried to bring some regulation in terms of plants and seeds which actually come through our territory through to the airlines if you hear that all the time so we try to control this and we are not allowed to import for example species of the grammy family which are of the weed family for example because it's a challenge to the sugar industry here so these are some of the measures we can but at the end of the day we still dependent on the region. I’ll just give you an example of how we handle one: this is a regional organization and regional framework. The legal framework around the region matters. We know that there is the rosewood for example, in Madagascar the rosewood in madagascar is threatened it's a species which Madagascar is really lost to control and it's in their regulation that this species is protected now just imagine if there has been in there has been a case in the past where the wood has been harvested illegally, it goes through our jurisdiction. Now if somebody actually stops that shipping we can't do anything about it because the rosewood is not in our site is list so how do we control this is where regional organization when they tackle species like this we need to have cohesion we have coherence when we handle species that's why the societies list has to be upgraded all the time and at some point we used to have only orchids but now we need to add more and more species but for this to happen we have politicians must speak to scientists and again scientists must learn to speak to politicians this is the thing here I'll make mamiya but we are weak because we speak to ourselves we don't communicate enough to the outer community we don't speak to policy makers and this is where the weakness lies so we have to increase the dialogue and I think this is where the organization has a key role to play is how to engage with these people to change the narrative in terms of addressing the policies so regional approach for example to I'm just giving one example of illegal harvesting of rosewood which goes to some of the big countries and also regulation up downstream those countries which are exploiting that word must also ask the question the traceability of that where has it come from has it come from a region where it is threatened with extinction I mean these are things we need to ask ourselves consumers we have a right to know so at the level of the consumer we have a huge power to be able to drive the change we can be the change we want to see in this world and um also I'm quoting in the great Mahatma but it's true what he said and so we need to be asking questions as consumers we need to be asking questions as to who you know where these products are being harvested be at the level of the ocean beat at the level of the earth of the various habitats so we have a big we can be game changers provided we start asking the question provided we are empowered provided we know we have the data and of course this also with strong institutions and this is again where we need to ensure that institutions keep growing and keep getting reinforced because the institution of politics come and go but institutions stay.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Thank you so much Your Excellency. We have about 14 minutes and so many questions coming in so let me just bring in Jonathon then Ashutosh and then Arundhati.

Jonathon: Hi Your Excellency, so a quick question, could you talk a little bit more about your concept of regionalism and why do you keep bringing it up and do you think more countries and nations are going to be focused more on regionalism versus cooperating with larger developing nations?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: One excludes the other. We are operating at the end of the day in a global arena and where you know goods and services are moving around all the time whenI talk about regional blogs I mean we have some major regional block you have NAFSA in the United States you have the ASEAN in Asia, you have seen also the African Union now which has enacted the AFCTA and you have the european union which of course remains a very big you know integration of many european countries where the migration the movement of goods and servicesIthink exceed sixty percent where Africa is still deported twenty percent andI think the ASEAN bloc represents a very good block in as much as it shows that the power of diversity there is no one such at all if you have the various countries which make up the aseanImean some of them are mavericks but you know they have made it work and they have been also a very good instrument for peace and they have driven peace in a region where it was impossible to even think of it a few years ago and we have seen that when peace was was possible prosperity ensured and um so prospering in fact we saw they emerged of course of the of the asian tigers and we have seen how prosperity has increased in countries like Vietnam for example that I’ve seen tremendous growth within the ASEAN framework so this is what we need to do but of course there's no stopping ASEAN from discussing with the EU or discussing NAFTA or microsoft and all these regions so we need the blocks because it's close proximity this can be so much exchanges but there is no one suspicious we have to increase the global dialogue to ensure a peaceful world but more importantly we have to have to acknowledge that we are increasingly going towards a more diverse and more multipolar world where the power play will be different to what it was when the United Nations was set up.

Jonathon: Thank you .

Ashutosh: Thank you, Your Excellency. My question is that what are your views on some upcoming technologies like solar radiation management there are ethical concerns and unintended consequences associated with these technologies but these are also inexpensive can countries like Mauritius or small developing nations take unilateral action to implement these technologies if we cross the tipping point and the sea level rises and there is a lot of drowning and people are not able to relocate properly?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: : In terms of the technology I think already we have taken we have made the pledge rather in Paris to go up to 35 per cent renewable and we have interesting mix when we look at the energy makes in Mauritius during because at some point we used to be a big producer of sugar and we actually used the bagasse actually to generate our our energy so for about four to five months we depended on a mix of pagas of course then you can see it's a green energy because it's is it's biomass and we used to have also power hydroelectric power but now with the vagaries of climate change this of course is is not there so much we can't rely on too much we are trying also a mix of wind but I think the solar one I think to me has more potential and I think even India launched in 2015 in Paris the global energy alliance and pushing for the green energies solar and with the way we are we get energy soul energy 12 to 13 hours per day. I don't see why we can't do that. In fact even now a country like Morocco is capitalizing this through the Sahara and pushing for solar energy so I think we we have to get our heads around this problem but no economy can can progress without of course access to energy a stable of course of energy so this should be our main focus is to ensure that the energy supply is there it's available. And unfortunately my continent the African can has always been described as being the dark continent but there are so many initiatives which are not happening with social entrepreneur young people pushing for um you know elaboration of various form of energy mix so that energy is available to one and all but having said this we also have to see that there's a question I saw in the box the rare earth metal yes how do we make that sustainable because at the end of the day we are still digging now how do we recycle at the end of the day you know this is again work in progress , how do we store has been generated from where are the battery power all need to be discussed because one thing that I know for sure is at emission is driving climate change and one thing we have to do immediately is to see how we can reduce emission.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Thank you thank you, Your Excellency and Arundhati who's also a GPODS fellow, so Arundhati over to you.

Arundhati: Hi Your Excellency, it's a pleasure reconnecting with you. We had a chance to meet during the shape after 242 back in 2016. My question to you is that you spoke about the role of Africa and its importance in the future, so do you think like we have so many African leaders in the multilateral agencies now IMF, WHO, WTO, do you see any change or do you think that it has like potential to really change the narratives and you know increase its role and help in its development ?

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Well having players you know this isn't, at least this representation as you have rightly said we have now Ngozi at the WTO and just like we have many Indian nationals who are operating out in the Silicon Valley and we are saying many very talented Indians across the world. I think representation for 1.2 billion people out in India it matters to see that their people are doing so well outside they become the role model for the young people to actually aspire to a higher position. Same thing goes for Africa if we have more and more people represented the talent is recognized it matters to the young people who are emerging out in Africa but having said this are they able to make the difference at that level I mean this is again another layer of discussion which take place because the power play is maybe beyond beyond them so we are we're trying to get there but as I've said before the difference will come at regional level when these countries unite and decide to collaborate and cooperate more and more do away with less belly you know kind of war-like attitude which we have seen in terms of stopping this country stopping that country we're not that we shouldn't be there we shouldn't be in that space we should use all our resources to tackle the major challenges which are facing us and one of the major challenge we have is climate change. So we have to put and also one main challenge we also have to think about increasingly is inequity and inequality and inequality we have seen over the past years how over the past months rather how the gap in the heaven have not have increased the chasm and I will have to get to go back to the United States with it was branded as the country where you can live your dream if you are good you can have the American dream but ask yourself the question now is the American dream still valid? Or are you now going to be defined by the resources of your parents for you to have access to college education because we know that education is the enabler. Now is an average American whose parent doesn't have the resources if he or she is talented is he or she going to have the American dream that's the question we need to ask ourselves but the same thing will happen even in places like India because you are an emerging country places like china and all these but I think where we have to to to see to see to it that inequality does not define us and unfortunately even a country like India which is doing so well internationally you still have millions of kids going to sleep at night without a food in the stomach so this is the thing that we should not we shouldn't we should which this should sit in our conscience. We should not we shouldn't allow this to happen and how do we do it again it depends on policies that governments take and policies are also defined but the other level of power play is there one thing as well I will also say we see now the guardrail of I just will use one example the guardrail of communication of information now is big tech and we have seen how they have avoided payment of tax until recently when the G20 decided as 15 per cent tax . So these institutions have to play the rules of the game. They have to pay the taxes and the biggest social responsibility that the corporations can do is pay the tax.

Arpit Chaturvedi: We still have four minutes left so I'll bring in Saheed and then Sunil if he's still around so say .

Saheed: Wonderful presentation Your Excellency. I'm so quite impressed. My name is Saheed. I'm from Nigeria and I'm really really really feeling happy now. Though I have a question. My question has to do with citizen participation how have you been able to enhance citizen participation in more issues such a way that to strengthen the biodiversity compare-based some of the biodiversity c, complexity in the country and also what do you think could do with citizen observatory centers as it means to incentivize the offers with which citizens can prioritize nature's solutions to technological solutions since in Africa we don't have the money so we need nature based solutions . Thank you very much madam.

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Well you are from the biggest economy in Africa right now you are number one Nigeria. I think here I'll put my heart into university academics. I think we have to keep on communicating and engage with young people. I think this is where again there we are weak in Africa because the chasm between the leaders in terms of the age gap is so wide because some leaders we know they are very very elderly and they may not be in touch with the young people and Africa they are the median age is around 16 to 18 in some countries right. So this is again we have to communicate we have to engage and we have also have to put at the disposal resources and I call again on the corporates in Africa to be that corporate that corporate person that gave Mark Zuckerberg the hundred thousand dollars for example to register Facebook so if we have more of such philanthropists in Africa we should be able to empower more young people because there is no dearth of talent there is no death of talent on this beautiful content of ours but we have the resources but we need the leadership and we need the willpower from one and all and we can't just put it squarely at the at the level of the leaders because at the at many other levels we should be able to make a difference and we can make a difference but will need the leadership at various level we need to communicate we need to empower and we need to make and access to tools of technology you name it energy we have just been discussing so that's what that's that's really the way forward again more access and more sharing and more giving .

Arpit Chaturvedi: Thank you, Your Excellency and we have Sunil. That'll probably be the last question if we just have 30 seconds left we'll probably get Hesbon as well but Sunil over to you.

Sunil: Thank you Arpit thank you very much I am Sunil Sastry I am an independent consultant expert and speaker in ocean and environmental governance based normally in the uk you may recall your excellency that we met in July 2013 when I led the national ocean dialogue yes and I find the phrase there republic of Mauritius a small island state a large ocean economy they printed some t-shirts they gave me one too anyway but coming back to your point about Partha Das Gupta and he he has as you probably know that the uk government has published the you know report which is the economics of biodiversity and as you rightly pointed out the biodiversity is one of the biggest challenges facing the planet but going back to Partha Das Gupta again his seminal work his original work when he was young was control of resources and that's what we want to grab our resources and control them and that brings me to the small island countries and although you have great spokesman nowadays in the form of mr thompson of fiji but what more and you mentioned that the groups are going to be more important so what more can groups like SIDS(Small Island Developing States) or AOSIS(Association of Small Island States) do to make themselves more empowered you know what is it that they can now do because there are the big powers and the small island states are big powers, because they're large ocean economies so how can this you know how can this work? Thank you.

H. E. Dr. Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: Thank you you know that a group of over 30 at the level of the united nation is very important so it's it's a group that can make or break a vote or abstention or whatever do you know the dynamic of the united nations butI think beyond that beyond the politics I think the SIDS(Small Island Developing States) they have a huge opportunity to share good practices and I'll just explain one example of seashells for example they have of course they were in the in the in the when we discussing the ocean economy in 2013. I think they were represented so there are there are so many of what there are so many good practices which are happening andIthink we as a group we can share so many of these you know share the practices we have because we have more in common with them than we would have with larger countries because of of the common challenges that we all face. So I think this is already something that we have to do controlling of better control as you say of our resources this is a challenge because we don't have the resources I mean just think of the ocean space in Mauritius 2.2 million square kilometers easier yeah exactly so this is again where we need partnership and we need partnership to be able to engage together but you know at the end of the day when it comes to partnership it also means of course access to resources and this is again where we there is weaknesses because we don't have the strong institution to be able to control the discussion and so again we need to collaborate and cooperate and the only way to do this is operating through blocks so be it AOCs SIDs saves a bit at the level of Africa southern commercial you know all these all these blocks this is only way where we will to make a difference make headway when we actually sit down together look at the resources and deciding the way forward. But sharing and partnering of course will be the way forward.

Arpit Chaturvedi: Well I think we're already over time so sorry Hasbon and a couple of other friends who've been messaging me this was the last question for the day but I think partnering and sharing is the way forward is the lesson that we can leave with thank you, Your Excellency for you know, being so candid and being so detailed with and open with our responses and for sparing the time I think this is something that we value a lot in our fellowship and you know I been an absolute privilege and a pleasure to have you over here with us. I would now invite Jonathon to say a vote of thanks.

Jonathon: Oh well Arpit, I mean you pretty much did it but thank you Your Excellency so thank you for taking the time to speak with us some of your stature and experience your insights are definitely invaluable. Some of your your words on north south cooperation human capital greener economy and and reforming the international geo-political space for developing countries are very insightful and on behalf of GPODS on behalf of the cohort, thank you so much for being here and we look forward to having you again in the future so thank you.